Furries And The North/South Divide

[lupestripe]

Reading some of the reviews of the London Furmeet got me thinking about whether the infamous North/South divide in the UK is also reflected in the Fandom. It has been known for a while that RBW and ConFuzzled's rivalry is far from friendly and on many occasions it has become downright personal. Added to this, there is a significant section of furries who fly the flag for their respective regions.

Some of the Northern Furs believe that London Meets are cliquey and unfriendly, often citing toilet escapades and drama that has long been consigned to the past as their reason not to head to the capital. Meanwhile, some London Furs believe that it is not worth venturing north of the Watford Gap because London is THE place to be.

Of course a lot of this relates to local pride and this is why Northern and Southern Patriotism (if we are to call it that) exists in the UK as a whole. I think this is reflected in the Fandom too and I am unsure as to whether it is constructive. We are a small group so is it worth dividing ourselves even further?

It is fair to say that in my experience, meets in the North differ to those in the South. I agree that the Northern meets are often friendlier but does this reflect the oft cited friendliness of Northerners or is it because the size and dynamics of the meets are different? Some people believe that the Northern meets have lost impetus recently and need after-parties to boost their reputations and profiles. Whilst I disagree vehemently with this, if people think this then clearly there is an issue somewhere.

I know there are advocates of both regions but why is this the case? Is it a sense of local loyalty or something deeper? Is it related to a dislike of the other contingent? Is it a friendly rivalry or something more bitter? Is it politically or socially motivated? And are their regional rivalries between furries in other countries?

Comments

[avon-deer.livejournal.com]

"It's impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman despise him." - George Bernard Shaw

It's always been this way to a certain degree. I think it's genetic. How closely does the modern "economic divide" follow the old Danelaw/Saxon border?(1) I include the word economic in quotations because I frankly do not believe the divide IS one of money, but rather attitudes.

How far this carries over into meets, I have no idea. I have not really attended either for some time now. I do know that the majority of meets are populated by very young people, who are really only just finding their way in the world. People tend to become less extreme with age. SO I wonder how much of this antagonism is simple youthful tribal enthusiasm.

(1) Allowing for a little variation based on the movement of peoples over times

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

It is such a deep and varied topic and one that will be impossible to fully quantify. As you say, the differences between Danelaw and Saxon is a difference in mentality - genetics plays some role in that, I agree.

Money? I am not too sure. Are south-west counties poorer than northern ones? London has five of the ten poorest boroughs in the country within its juristiction. Both Leeds and Manchester are becoming increasingly prosperous and wealthy cities. I think part of the problem may be the media focusing on London, which creates an us and them attitude.

The hot-headedness of youth may also play another role, as you intimate.

[helen-hedgey.livejournal.com]

I think you're over-thinking this issue. It doesn't really matter =P

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

I probably am but it is something that I have heard voiced quite a lot in the last few months, and particularly over the last few days. It just got me thinking. Personally, it doesn't bother me all that much - I just get on with whoever I get on with, irrespective of geographical proximity.

[godzuki.livejournal.com]

Interestingly I have heard the same unsavoury stories about northern meets as have been cited about southern ones, and the same levels of vitriol from both camps over pretty much the same issues.

I think the idea of northern meets - or northerners in general - being friendlier than southerners is pretty much horse shit. I have lived in both parts of the country for over 15 years and you get friendly people in both parts. Its only prejudice that makes each side think the other is not as friendly.

Again it comes down to pack mentality of the human race - the us vs them factor, which sadly doesnt seem to have been broken by the fandom for most people.

[wruf.livejournal.com]

I totally agree with the Zookmeister here.

[fen-ra.livejournal.com]

Personally I don't see any difference between the northern and southern meets, it just changes the names that run through my head after I think; 'Hooray, I get to see...'

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

It's often the best way to be. I tend to think in terms of dynamics and the possibility of meeting new people too. Having said that, I would say I have an equal number of close furry friends in the South as I do in the North now.

[godzuki.livejournal.com]

Its there, or certainly was there back in 2008, even if you werent aware of it.

[iffriel.livejournal.com]

I've been to 2 London meets and I'd go again because of London, I quite liked it as a little excursion, you can, as they say, buy anything there. The issue really does come down to friendliness, the London furs are all cool and fine as long as they already know you, or as long as you dress like some animé character, but if you're just some random northern fur they just don't want to know, I was ignored by everyone but those I already knew, and they were northern furs too I might add, no one from London wanted to know. Fioxy just attended his first London meet and can totally reflect my experience, there's a real sense raffishness about the London meets that put me off and you know me Lupe I'm not one to make irrational observations. There's a sense of "if you're not cool enough that we don't already know who you are, then piss off" the meets seem to be all about image and ego and your group being the center of attention with the sharpest looking kids or the best artists in it, something I really don't like, yeah we have groups in the northern meets too but they're always different every time I attend one and there's no "you can't hang with us" syndrome.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

I believe that the difference between Northern and London meets is that you could turn up to the Northern ones not knowing anyone and you could get talking far more easily than you could at a London meet. London meets have significantly improved when it comes to this though and I met a lot of cool new people the other day but again, it often comes in the way of introductions. Still, with the way the Fandom is online, I imagine it wouldn't be too difficult to meet people before the event.

I haven't seen nor heard of any kind of elitism going on to be honest. I certainly haven't experienced it but I am sure it exists everywhere, irrespective of which part of the country you are in. The furs I did meet in London were all affable and interesting.

[icelyon.livejournal.com]

This is why living in Norfolk has only the one advantage...! (And thus, disadvantage!)

We're miles away from both! It's about the same price travelling to either one, so it's usually a case of whichever more friends are going to be at :)

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

How is the East Anglian furscene? I know Cambridge has occasional meets. I imagine it would be quicker for you to get to a London meet though, right?

[londonwolf.livejournal.com]

I'm not really sure there is a divide as such - at least I'm not aware of one. I was slightly put out when I was told by a few northern furs who made the journey down that they were all told the Londonmeets were one big sexfest. I don't see why it's necessary to be honest, and every northern fur who's come down and spoken to me about their time has said they had a blast and will (have) return(ed).

That said people who do come who aren't regular attendees need to make the effort to speak to those already there - this goes for new Londonfurs as well as anyone from outside the immediate area - it's up to them to try to talk and get to know people, rather than wait for someone else to come and speak to them. There are plenty of ways to put out feelers before attending and suggesting no-one wants to know you because you've not made the effort is a little unfair.

[lazyhowl.livejournal.com]

It might be the air down there? :D Nah I'd think for some, its the familiarity. I dun really like big citys and while I've been to London before no plans to go again unless a reason. Shame never was able to get the dales meets going, I dunno if like down south but only ever seemed to sit in a pub and drink up a lot of day here at meets I've been to.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

The problem with the Dales is one of access. Most people rely on public transport which is unreliable or in many cases non-existent. In theory I'd love to do it but I just can't do it in a day, sadly. Familiarity is a big factor in all this, I am sure. There is nothing worse than being shunned (or have the feeling of being shunned) in a strange city and that works both ways in this case.

[stuart-otterson.livejournal.com]

I'm without a doubt guilty of spurring such things along. I do it out of a sense of local pride for my area, perhaps jealous for attention to be shone on the north, but more than anything else I'd like to stress I thinking of it as more of a friendly rivalry. There's a bit of a British essence to make fun out of each other, I like to have a pop at my southern friends and they'll have an equal pop at me. :)

I treat the rivalry as a bit of fun, as I'll illiterate there's nothing I have personally against London meets. It sometimes is a nice motivation to improve one's area.

[schnee.livejournal.com]

I'd imagine it's similar everywhere. People are people, and furries are still a product of the society they stem from; if there is a north/south divide in English (British?) society in general (something I don't know about, but I'll take your word for it), then it would only be natural for it to also carry over into any non-local subculture.

Of course, it's also the kind of game where the only winning move is to not play. Personally, I think there's people who're worthwhile, and people who're not, and - as a third group - people who you disagree with on certain matters but where both you and them are intelligent enough to avoid these subjects and not let them get between you. I'd just focus on those in the first and the last group and not care about those that make a big deal out of this whole thing and try to push the idea that there really is a fundamental divide, one that is more than just an arbitrary social construct, more than just a meme.

Anyhow. "toilet escapades"? o.O

[avon-deer.livejournal.com]

Germany's strong federal system prevents the kind of funding dichotomy which exists here when it comes to infrastructure and civic improvements of what are know as "provincial cities."

It's all turned into a big catch-22. Companies will invest in the capital above all else because the capital alone has that "business feel." And the capital alone has that "business feel" because it's the place above all else where businesses will invest.
It is changing slowly, more by necessity rather than desire though. The capital is literally running out of space. The BBC has grudgingly accepted that it needs to represent the whole of the UK and not just the Home Counties, and has expanded some of it’s operations to Manchester. Recently the government has just announced an interest in moving some civil servants from Whitehall to “The Regions” in order to save money. Though I daresay those civil servants affected will react in the same way as a Muscovite being told he is being transferred to Siberia. “Oh my god; The Regions?!”

Many people call the North/South divide a divide of wealth, but I do not accept that. There are many very wealthy Northerners and there are poor Southerners. It is more a divide of attitudes and expectations. The UK is just far too centralised, and the North South divide is a result of that centralisation.

[shep-shepherd.livejournal.com]

I have dual heritage - my father is from Lancashire and my mother is from Kent - so I get along well with furs from both the north and south :)

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Of course, that's always the best way to be. I don't think you have had any issues with the North/South thing, have you? I haven't either really.

[simbab.livejournal.com]

The north/south divide (something I'm admittedly vaguely aware of but not being from there I can't say I know too much about it), strikes me as something similar that we have here in New York State. New York City is in the south(east) of the state and even up north of there, up towards the Catskills, it's a different world than it is waaaay up here in Syracuse, and most of the rest of what most people consider "upstate New York". It's far more rural, much more along the lines of what I grew up with in the rural Midwest.

There's still fairly populous cities up here, but they are nowhere near as sprawled out (we live 2 minutes north of downtown and it's practically the boonies here), and outside of the rich douchebags in the Capital District (Albany, the state capital), and the techies in Rochester, most of upstate is pretty blue-collar.

Head up north of here and you have what I once saw someone refer to as "wooly-headed Great Lakes folks". I've been up to Lake Ontario and Oswego once, it's pretty up there.

I'm a country person, and I make little apology for it; I like wide open spaces and I want to live in the country (as does my mate). I've always harbored a bit of disdain for city partisans, but in the end we're all human which tends to be enough for me more often than not. :)

[whitetomger.livejournal.com]

I've been over there a few times, haven't had much chance to notice it yet, only met a couple of furs in the area and haven't been any further north than Poughkeepsie, I do love Manhattan but when I'm there I prefer being a bit more upstate, the Fishkill area's like a second home but the furs I've met there or heard of have been pretty diverse

[whitetomger.livejournal.com]

There's always going to be a north/south divide because neither side can feel willing to make the journey or not have the funds. At some point I want to give London meets a shot but I still feel pretty unknown in that area of the country and don't want to risk feeling left out.
There's always going to be the evident social gap between northern and southern furs as well but that's pretty self evident since the south can have more work available. I've only done Northern meets thus far but even the larger ones I tend to despise. I'm one of those boring types who prefer smallish groups or meeting one on one. Once I can I'll give a London meet a chance but the sheer expense of such a trip isn't plausible at this time. Especially as I'm planning another jaunt to the US in September if Matt can't make it here.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

If you like smaller groups then the LF meets are not for you. But then a lot of LFs form smaller groups within the context of a large meet so it could work. All you need to do is speak to a few beforehand though, on interwebs and things.

[doco.livejournal.com]

For the Continental furry fandom, the British furs and their tendency toward drama have provided excellent laughing stock through most of the early 2000s - it's sad, but it's true. So I guess the North-South divide can be applied on a bigger scale, too. :)

Actually, I think it really -may- have something to do with the lower age demographic in general. I've been around for a while (well, close to fifteen years now, which is a -hell- of a long time for someone who's barely pushing 30!) and I can positively confirm that too large numbers of teenagers Just Don't Work[tm] - there's some very good reason why most meets and cons on the continent are 18+ events by now. (Hint: They didn't use to be.) Add to that your youth culture of getting wasted beyond reason, and it's a recipe for disaster...

In general, I think the days of open-for-all fur meets are slowly reaching their end anyways, no matter where you are. If you don't want to let it turn into a boozefest or a freakshow, the only option is to apply an idiot filter, really, because the pool of people to draw from just gets too large. Several of my friends do that already, when they go out on a fursuit outing or have fun at a bowling alley or something they -do- go in a group of twenty, but they don't make the mistake of announcing an open-for-all event and end up with 20 reasonable guys and 30 fucktards. (*cough* Berlin *cough*)

Sure, it adds additional barriers to newcomers, but if you behave like a decent human being with more than three brain cells on the interwebs, chance has it that you'll hear of one of these happenings nearby, and people might just let you in once you're in good standing with them. That's not much different from other real-life interaction.

[rugbywolf.livejournal.com]

Just no.

Yes, the London meets -as with absolutely everything- have their complement of idiots and social retards, but the majority of the attendees aren't like that. Over 100 people come to the London meets every three weeks, and there haven't been any "disasters", even though *gasp* we let in under-18s. To be perfectly honest, it doesn't matter what age you are as long as you have the right attitude, which I will agree a few do not. However, this is no reason to effectively restrict the fandom to an exclusive club that you can't get into unless you're "in good standing" with people already involved.

[balto-mike.livejournal.com]

I originally come from the South, having lived in Berkshire for 18 years. However my first furry experiences came from the North, when I was living in York. This didn't mean however that I would exclude London while I was living in the North, which I didn't. However I did feel at my first Londonfur meet that it was a little difficult to meet people and only because I did know a few members, like Lupus & Alfa, did things seem to warm up, and most certainly only when I went to a second meet 3 weeks later.

In the North, I think the city rotation by the Northernfurs helps too, people see a variety of places and get different experiences. So there's more chance of interactions and 'exploring' outside of your own city. However I feel that Manchester is becoming a new London with its own minimeets, there's a new population of furs there who seem to never leave the city. Perhaps that lack of variety, and staying in one place can have an effect.

Currently I live in Bristol now, so I am back in the South, however my last meet I attended was a Midfur meet in Nottingham, which went very well. Its like there's a whole population of furs whom everybody has forgotten about there as they are neither North or South!

My personal attitude has always been of a United Kingdom, so this means I try to look at it all as one thing and not split it up. Hell the US Furs should have a worse time, look how vast their regions are! XD

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

I completely agree with everything you have written here - pretty much what I think on this subject in its entirety.

[rustyfox.livejournal.com]

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until I'm blue in the face.

Furs are humans. We're all human. We're nothing aside from ordinary Joe Bloggs.

Although not inevitable, it's not surprising a north / south divide might exist within meets. I've lived in London, and heck, even the people there acknowledge you're seen as some weirdo if you dare so much as make eye contact with a stranger. Strike up a conversation, you're a complete lunatic! One reason I'll never live there again.

Myself though, I've only found that sort of selfishness with London specifically - not anywhere else in southern England. When talking about North / South, people are generally comparing London to everywhere else, just as you are doing here.

What about Hantsfurs meets? Are there any Devon / Cornish meets? What about Bristol meets? London is an ugly microcosm all to itself.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Groups are united by a common interest or theme. In some respects that can be a common emotion or belief that can transcend the general culture. I accept furries are all human but that doesn't mean that we necessarily believe what perceived thought may be. I was interested in how a supposedly tolerant and open-minded community can sometimes be so polar. It's more a psychological interest for me.

London generally is less friendly than the North I would say but then that may be because I have more in common with people in the North and I am more likely to instigate a conversation here than I am down South. I don't know. I agree that this debate is more London v the North but a lot of furs who come to the London meets come from the outlying areas - some as far as Brighton and Bristol. I imagine that the smaller meets you mention are easier ones in which to get to know people due to their smaller numbers.

[darkone238.livejournal.com]

*shrug* From what I'm told, we have a divide in Seattle, Washington. We divide within the same (small) metropolitan area!

Also, Northern and Southern California...

Furries just like drama.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

How does this drama manifest itself? I imagine it can't be that bad if you can't see much of it in Seattle. I don't know the situation here really, suffice to say I think there may be people with extreme views making the most noise.

[silent-o.livejournal.com]

I have to say this post and its comments were rather enlightening for me.

I've never been to a meet, and I only know one other fur personally. (We're not exactly on good speaking terms because he played with my emotions too much.) I'll get to one someday, even if it isn't until I move to an area with a higher furry population than two.

I am, for now, confined to the internets.

I knew there was drama in the Fandom, but I have never seen this much in one place before.

I am taking no side in this. Please don't hurt me.

*cowers in a corner*

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Is this drama or just debate? I don't think there is a lot of drama on this post - it certainly wasn't my intention to create it. I don't think there is a side to take really, I am just intrigued with the whole concept.

[lsfiox.livejournal.com]

I can see lots of different views here too (And a metric fuckton of comments) but people's opinions are gonna be based through different experiences, personally i went to the London Meet with some slight reservations but I went to give it a try and to see if I could get rid of those reservations, however, this was not the case, the LondonFurs who actively travel up North and go 'against' the North/South divide I found to be the friendliest, the ones i'd met before for example who introduced me to their friends but to everyone else I might as well have been invisible.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Yes, I appear to have opened up a can of worms on this one, which wasn't really my intention. It is something I have been thinking about quite a lot recently and one that was highlighted quite brightly this weekend, which is why I am writing about it now.

I certainly agree that it is far better to meet a few furs online before you go to a London Meet but then I could say the same for any moderate to large sized meet anywhere in the world. In 100 strangers, it is always easy to get drowned out. As the Northern meets are generally smaller, I think the transition South to North may be easier than North to South. I don't know.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Indeed I am, didn't realise that until someone pointed that out earlier today. I don't know the case in Scotland but I have been told of similar incidents up there too. Whether they are true or not, I have no idea.

[canisrufus-uk.livejournal.com]

I personally wouldn't choose to go to a London furmeet, or RBW simply because, despite being no stranger to London (I have family there), I have to say I just don't like the place, so I would need a significant reason to go.

Having said that, I have no personal problem with London FURS in general, I tend not to think of people by place anyway, I try to judge people individually, "a fur who seems friendly" or "a fur who's unfriendly", where they're from doesn't really matter to me. Unfortunately is seems it does matter to some of them, at Anthrocon the furs who were least friendly to me were some of the southern UK furs, the Americans were fine.

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

Then that's a fair choice based on your own experiences and what makes you happy. I imagine you don't try and force that view on others as your view of London Furs (like all furs) is similar to my own - you make friends on an individual by individual basis. Why were the southern furs unfriendly to you, may I ask?

[tilton.livejournal.com]

I must say, this is a fascinating discussion. As an outsider, I really tend to think of "England" as just a single, monolithic entity, despite knowing quite well that it is a collection of very distinct counties.

My own foreigner's impression is that "The North" is sort of seen as a bit quaint and rural, rather like "The South" is seen here in the United States. But I suppose there's quite a bit more to it than that. It strikes me as a little bit like some of the cultural differences in the U.S., but compressed into a much smaller physical space.

There's a possibility that I'll be hitting Confuzzled next year; I hope it's a fun time, and I hope it's not marred by any in-fighting! I mean, honestly, London is only 200 miles away from Manchester — that's half the distance from Los Angeles to San Francisco! Try San Francisco to Pittsburgh some time :3

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

The North in the UK was the industrial centre in the Victorian Era. A lot of the factories and mills were built up here but after WWII it went into decline as we moved away from manufacturing and into the service sector. Both the north and the south have their nice bits of countryside - and as you say, the counties are very distinct.

ConFuzzled is in the north and it has a northern theme but it is not exclusively northern, just like RBW isn't exclusively south. The rivalry that has been present between the two over the last couple of years seems to be subsiding, which is encouraging. Distance is all about relativity though - to us 200 miles is a long way. Hope you enjoy CF if you do come next year :)

[samiaperun.livejournal.com]

The majority of complaints seems to be people crying because no one talked to them at a London meet.

Alright, let me put it this way, why -should- anyone talk to you at a furmeet? Thats not me saying 'Ooh you must smell', but in a meet that is always over 100+ people unless its a weekend on another event day, people are going to be spending time with people they know in the usual circles.

This isn't like Northern meets which consists of a smaller group of people that all know each other, therefore new people would mostly be friend of a friend and can be indoctrinated into the circle, the London furs is more of an establishment rather then a group. We provide the venue, but do not know everyone that goes to it, nor is it the responsibilty of the people there to make sure the kids get along and make new friends.

If you want to get to know people, then go out there and GET TO KNOW PEOPLE. Dont just stand in the corner hoping someone will take pity and venture over, it doesn't work like that. If you are too shy to do that in person, then get to know someone online first to meet up with, hell I love making new friends so feel free to use me.

Blaming other peoples social insecurity on some mythical north/south devide is like blaming the smoke for the fire. It winds me up no end when people who I have never, ever heard of (like some of the people in this thread) complain because people haven't welcomed them like the second coming.

You dont immediatly make friends just because you are a fur, you make friends based on your personality and your own merits.

This = <3's

[(Anonymous)]

This -> "You dont immediatly make friends just because you are a fur, you make friends based on your personality and your own merits."

[startide.livejournal.com]

ah, furries and their need to divide everything into cliques, lol! Hell, I know of a few cities where there are several cliques that don't intermix for the most part. And that's just in the same city!

[lupestripe.livejournal.com]

I think the same happens here - I guess it may be humanity's needs to divide things rather than just something unique to furry though.